Philip Blumel: Politicians, not voters. That’s the answer. Hi, I’m Philip Blumel. Welcome to No Uncertain Terms, the official podcast of the term limits movement for the week of November 4th, 2019.
Speaker 2: Your sanctuary from partisan politics.
Philip Blumel: The question is who supports weakening Michigan State legislative term limits? Nick Tomboulides has the fresh polling in his hands. Hey Nick.
Nick Tomboulides: Hey Phil.
Philip Blumel: So what are the voters telling us in Michigan?
Nick Tomboulides: So this is hot off the presses. It’s a new poll conducted by Pulse Research, commissioned by US term limits. What’s been found is a super majority, solid super majority of Michigan voters supports keeping the states’ current six and eight year term limits, while also believing that legislator’s new attacks on the law are self-serving.
Philip Blumel: Surprise, surprise,
Nick Tomboulides: 69% overall of Michigan voters oppose changes to term limits and the opposition is bipartisan. 75% of Republicans, 65% of Democrats and 68% of independent voters say that the current limits should remain in place. On top of that, we also asked them about the motivation of legislators who desire a longer term limits. 70% of voters believe the legislators are doing it to benefit themselves personally, feather their own nests, while only 19% think it is being done to benefit the people of Michigan.
Philip Blumel: You know what’s interesting about those numbers is that the 69% who oppose change in the law, that’s a much higher number than the number of voters that actually enacted the law.
Nick Tomboulides: Yes.
Philip Blumel: And I think it had passed by around 60% and here we’ve got 69% opposing changing it because they’ve had experience with the law. They’ve seen that it’s worked in Michigan, to the voters liking anyway, and so they support the law and of course they’re right about the motivation.
Nick Tomboulides: But that success hasn’t stopped the legislators and lobbyists from trying to repeal or lengthen term limits. We see this every few years. There’s little effort that crops up among these Lansing insiders to either let the politicians keep power longer or abolish term limits altogether in some cases.
Philip Blumel: Right now in this case, there’s a conspiracy afoot. It’s between the leaders of both the House and the Senate in Michigan and the largest and most powerful lobby in the state, the Chamber of Commerce. And a faux grassroots group called Politicians, Not Voters. Voters, Not Politicians, I’m sorry. It’s easy to get that mixed up. And they’re putting together a proposal that what we’re hearing is that will actually limit the members of the legislature to 20 years from the current law, which is six years in the House and eight years in the Senate. Pretty crazy. And we think they’re going to try to package it in a group of pleasant sounding reforms that voters like and sort of hide the term limits weakening inside of it. So that’s what’s going on in Michigan right now.
Nick Tomboulides: It’s going to be a tough road to hoe.
Philip Blumel: Sure.
Nick T: For these these groups because we did some more polling and found this is a huge, this conspiracy is a huge political liability. Not just for the legislators, but also for the special interest groups that are pushing it. We asked voters in Michigan, are you more or less likely to support a state legislator who votes to lengthen his or her own term limits? 46% said they were less likely to support a person like that. Only 16% were more likely to support a person like that.
Philip Blumel: Right.
Nick Tomboulides: We also told them the Michigan Chamber of Commerce has been the group leading the effort to weaken term limits, give state legislators more time in office. Based on that, do you have a more favorable or less favorable opinion of the Chamber? 52% of respondents said they had a less favorable opinion. While just 9% said they had a more favorable opinion of the Chamber of Commerce. So this is a shipwreck that is taking a lot of people down with it if this moves forward. It’s highly unpopular. The ringleader, sate majority leader, Mike Shirkey in the Senate, he’s planning to run for governor in 2022. We asked voters if you knew that Shirkey was leading the effort to lengthen term limits and give politicians more time in office. Does that make you more or less likely to vote for him for governor? 54% said they were less likely to vote for him versus just 10% who are more likely. So this is not just a bad policy, is a political disaster waiting to happen for everyone inside the establishment in Michigan.
Philip Blumel: It could be. And that really makes you wonder why is it so important to these politicians that they weaken or abolish this law and why is it so important to the Chamber that this law be weekend and abolish. And the fact that they’re willing to take this risk shows how important it is to them that term limits are attacked. And let’s look at this motivation a little closer because you had asked me the question recently, why is it that in some states where we have term limits, you don’t see this rancor of the political class that you see in Michigan. Politicians everywhere don’t like term limits, but the efforts and the lengths that they’re willing to go in Michigan is so much greater and they’re so much angrier there. Why, like compared to Florida for instance, there’s other differences between the states that I think help explain it.
Philip Blumel: One is the fact that in Florida, legislators are paid about less than $30,000 a year and it’s a part time job. You still have your careers and everything, but in Lansing it’s very different. In Lansing, all in they make about a hundred grand a year and it’s a full time, year round job. I mean this is a career, and so when you get to the end of your term limit and you’re booted out, you’re giving up something a lot bigger and more important to your life than a part time legislator is in say, Florida.
Nick Tomboulides: `And this isn’t normal, by the way. All 50 States have legislatures, but according to NCSL, National Conference of State Legislatures, only four states have highly paid full time legislatures with a large staff. Those are California, New York, Michigan, and Pennsylvania. So right off the bat, what we’re noticing is Michigan is different from 90% of other states. As you said, whereas 90% of States have some kind of hybrid system where you keep outside employment. You take a couple months off to be a legislator. Michigan, totally different, much like Congress, it’s a full time job. So right off the bat, it’s radically different from the rest of America. But it’s also different from its fellow states with a full time legislature in that the total salary and benefits is highest in the country with the exception of California.
Nick Tomboulides: California of course, has 40 million people. Michigan has 10 million. The average pay even in a full-time legislature is 26% less than what you can earn in Michigan. So they are getting an absolute a sweetheart deal. I mean, I did a little rundown here on my handy dandy napkin. I found base pay, 79,000. 12,000 more annually for expenses for each legislator, retirement benefits, health, dental, vision, other insurance benefits, lifetime health coverage starting at age 55. And then an additional 5,000 to 27,000 if you’re in a leadership position. It’s estimated that if they cut legislators’ salaries and perks in Michigan, even by a modest amount, you could save the taxpayers 11 million bucks.
Philip Blumel: Wow. Well I think that sort of explains why these legislators want to stay there.
Scott Tillman: Hi, this is Scott Tillman, the National Field Director with US term limits. We ask state legislators and candidates for state legislature to sign a pledge to help us term limit Congress. The pledge reads, “I pledge that as a member of the state legislature, I will co-sponsor, vote for and defend the resolution applying for and Article Five Convention for the sole purpose of enacting term limits on Congress.” This week we had five new candidates sign the state legislator pledge. If you have access to a candidate, please ask them to sign our pledge. Pledges are available at termlimits.com.
Nick Tomboulides: Once in a blue moon you do run into a legislator in Michigan who is just an honest guy who’s for term limits and one of those is named Leon Drolet. He was termed out. He once wrote an article on our website and he said that “Being a legislator is like living in an eternal Disneyland.” Based on all the perks and the privilege and the fact that it’s the greatest thing you’ve ever seen. And term limits when you really think about it are basically your mom and dad announcing, okay, it’s time to put down the Mickey bar and go home. It’s a tough pill to swallow. So there are financial losses to be sure, but there’s also psychological ones. Getting elected, it’s got transforming effect on somebody. Suddenly every joke you tell is hilarious. You’re highly respected, you’re considered a VIP when you walk into any room.
Nick Tomboulides: We focus on how much politicians lie, but what Drolet said is when you lose sight of is how often other people lie to them. Telling them every decision they make, every bill they file is a great idea even though they often know better. That’s got an intoxicating effect and it’s very hard to let go. It’s hard to give up that power and come back down to Earth. So the argument Drolet made, which I thought was one of the best arguments for term limits I’ve ever heard, is not just that it makes society better or that it makes democracy better. But that it makes the person himself or herself better when they return to society, they come down off that cloud and has a humbling effect on them.
Philip Blumel: On an earlier podcast, Michelle Obama made a similar case for term limits based on an idea related to that. And that is that, like Leon said, the more you’re in power, the more disconnected you get from the real world because everyone’s telling you things that you want to hear. You can’t stand in line in Chipotle which is her example and have the same experience that you or I would because everybody recognizes him. Everybody’s going to run up to him. Everybody changed the way they behave just because they recognize him. And so they just lose track of what the world is like and they live in this bubble and she made the point that that’s one reason why eight years is a good limit on the presidency. Because you just are getting further and further away from reality the longer you spend in a role like that. Excellent point.
Nick Tomboulides: Yeah, key point that we’ve emphasized from the very beginning, any discussion about term limits in Michigan should be exclusively the province of the people of Michigan. The ones who enacted this law in the first place should have a say about whether term limits are ever shortened or lengthened. It shouldn’t be the same politicians who are affected by the law because that’s a blatant conflict of interest. The law is designed to limit their own power. Just as you wouldn’t let General Motors write auto safety laws or you wouldn’t let Wall Street bankers write their own regulations. Although that does happen too often. You shouldn’t let politicians write their own term limits. It’s just an obvious conflict of interest.
Philip Blumel: That’s right. And let me ask you this. Do you think it’s more important that these politicians be restrained in a state like Michigan where it’s a full time job upon which they base their entire life? Or in a state where they’re part time and paid a lot less? In which group are the incentives more in line with the people that they represent? And the answer is, of course, termlimits are more important in Michigan for the very reason that the politicians want to get rid of them is the very reason why the voters need them in Michigan so badly.
Nick Tomboulides: Yeah, I’ve started a few different op-eds with the same question. What does it mean when politicians are whining and complaining about term limits? It means those term limits are working.
Philip Blumel: Another thing I want to talk about is the Chamber of Commerce, their interest in this, because again, they’re taking a big risk as well. The polling shows that the voters are going to get mad at him for opposing the term limits law. And so why are they taking this risk? And of course the for them is that they spend, like in 2018 they spent about $2 million to elect and retain lawmakers, basically on their payroll. They influence them with this money and they’re making an investment and they don’t want to have that investment torn from them after a six or eight year period. And then they have to start all over with someone new that they may not be able to capture, and certainly has independence from them. And the chamber is known in Michigan as the biggest and most powerful and influential lobby in the state. And it really shows how lobbyists hate term limits and how much they would benefit and the risks they’re willing to take to get rid of them, in order to solidify and increased their influence and power.
Nick Tomboulides: Your dad has a great quote, which is, “An honest politician is one who once bought, stays bought.” And I think that rings true here. Look back at what Jack Abramoff said about term limits and lobbyists. He said, “An elected official who stays in office for life and is a friend is worth his weight in gold to the lobbying community.” And Abramoff used a word that up until that point I hadn’t really heard before. He said, “We as lobbyists, we don’t want to have to repurchase legislators over and over again.” Repurchase them, basically saying we would prefer a lifetime subscription once we know somebody is in our pocket, we love the consistency and reliability of being able to go back to that person over and over again. And this is what you see in Michigan because the report you sent me, the Chamber had 28 legislative priorities I guess in the last year or so. And on 24 of those 28, the legislature voted with them, meaning they are getting an amazing return on that investment.
Philip Blumel: Jack Abramoff was an American lobbyists, so notorious that a movie was made after him. Casino Jack starring Kevin Spacey in the title role. Abramoff was at the center of an extensive corruption investigation that led to his conviction and to 21 other people either pleading guilty or being found guilty, including a 24 year career politician, US representative Bob Ney of Ohio, as well as white house officials, lobbyists, and congressional aids. In January, 2006 he was sentenced to six years in federal prison for mail fraud, conspiracy to bribe public officials and tax evasion. He served 43 months before being released in 2010. Since then, he’s changed his tune about a lot of things including term limits.
Jack Abramoff: Congress will never be fixed without term limits and I should know. I used to be one of the biggest lobbyists in Washington. Lobbyists and the special interests have our government in their grips. America’s furious with what has become of our republic. But few know what to do about it. I’ll tell you one thing that would make a huge difference: term limits. When I was a lobbyist, I hated the idea that a Congressman who I had bought with the years of contributions, would decide to retire. That meant I had to start all over again with the new member, losing all the control I bought with years of checks. One of best ways to reduce lobbyists and special interests control in Washington is to enact term limits for members of Congress. If you want to see pigs screeching at the trough, tell them they can’t stay there forever. There’s no trough as dangerous as the one in Washington, so let’s clean up the corrupt mess. Let’s enact term limits and restore control of our nation to the people.
Philip Blumel: Now last week, Nick, you were in Nashville at something called Politicon. What was that?
Nick Tomboulides: Yes, it was my first foray into Politicon. It was a very fun experience. It’s known as the unconventional political convention, and what they do is they’re nonpartisan. They bring liberals and conservatives together to banter on different issues. I would say more so than liberals and conservatives. It was really liberals and people who love Trump. Trump was kind of like the defining issue.
Philip Blumel: Was it friendly? Because I mean nowadays you get so much bitterness out there between these groups. But at Politicon, I could tell by the way they were marketing it, they really wanted this to be a friendly and fun, almost funny.
Nick Tomboulides: Yes. For the most part. For the most part, yes. It was very civil. You had like Trump and Bernie impersonators walking around, did get heated at times. Obviously the big dividing line was Trump. Folks either love him or hate him. But I’ll tell you what was really cool. So I was running a US term limits table. I didn’t get to check out any of the sessions because I was at our table the whole time. But it didn’t matter if you were pro-Trump, anti-Trump, or indifferent, almost everybody agreed congressional term limits were a marvelous idea.
Philip Blumel: Great.
Nick T: I recall at least five times during the conference I would be standing in front of the table. I’m giving my spiel about why term limits are great and on one side of my table with somebody in a MAGA hat. On the other side was somebody in a Bernie hat.
Philip Blumel: Wow.
Nick Tomboulides: And I’d be saying the same thing, I’d be talking about how we need to break up power of incumbency, smash seniority, make Congress more diverse. And every single time this happened, both the Trump supporter and the Bernie supporter would be nodding in unison and getting fired up about term limits. They might agree on nothing else. They might’ve just gotten finished having a shouting match with each other, but they agree on this. And I thought that was so cool.
Philip Blumel: That’s great.
Nick Tomboulides: I’ve started calling this the Thanksgiving issue because if you’ve got relatives who always fight at Thanksgiving, try this, try bringing up term limits. Try bringing up asking your Congressman about the term limits pledge. I guarantee that your relatives are going to stop hurling potatoes at each other and they’re very likely to agree with you because this issue, it brings people together like no other. And at a time where we are likely to see maybe a president get impeached. We’re going to need something to bring us all back together again.
Philip Blumel: Did any luminaries come by the booth? Because I noticed there was a lot of big shots at least on the stage from the left and right. I mean James Carville was there and Sean Hannity and people like that. Anybody come by?
Nick Tomboulides: I have been a sworn to secrecy by the secret service. I’m actually not allowed to discuss who came by the booth.
Philip Blumel: So President Trump came by.
Nick Tomboulides: I’ll just let the audio speak for itself.
Speaker 6: Oh my God. What is this? This is awful.
Nick Tomboulides: That’s you endorsing term limits.
Speaker 6: I’m going to say this only once. After my fourth term, we need serious term limits specially for Congress. Like Senator Schumer, a lifer. I mean what is he? A Supreme Court Judge and Nancy, my God, is she 100? I think she’s 100 years old.
Nick Tomboulides: But not for you though?
Speaker 6: No. Wait a second. Four terms. I don’t think that’s greedy.
Philip Blumel: Any other luminaries?
Nick Tomboulides: Yeah. Former Governor Bill Weld, who is a long shot Republican, also running for president. One thing notable about this, he was on a panel, which I could hear from our booth, and when they asked him, “What should the 28th amendment to the Constitution be?” He said it should be congressional term limits, and he said, “It should be done by a convention that could bypass Congress and enact it.” So he basically gave us a very full throated, bold, positive endorsement from the stage, which I thought was cool.
Philip Blumel: That’s great.
Nick Tomboulides: There were a lot of Andrew Yang supporters who came by our booth who were super encouraged to hear Andrew Yang talking about term limits a lot, particularly on his Twitter account. He’s somebody who comes from outside the political system, so it’s the perfect wave for him to ride as a candidate to kind of get more popularity in the democratic primary.
Nick Tomboulides: Hey you, loyal podcast listener. I have a question for you. How much impact do your opinions have on members of Congress? A lot, a little, maybe somewhere in between. What if I told you the answer was zero. What if I told you that your voice doesn’t matter, that the opinions of average Americans have no impact whatsoever on what Congress chooses to do. Sadly, it’s the truth. Professor Martin Gilens, Princeton and Ben Page of Northwestern University analyzed 2,000 public opinion surveys over a 20 year period. Then they compared it to what Congress passed into law. What they found was deeply troubling. The opinions of 90% of Americans have no impact at all on what Congress does. If all Americans want something to happen, the odds Congress will pass it are 30%. If no Americans want something to happen, the odds Congress will pass it are still 30%. They aren’t listening to you. If you’ve got a problem with that, too bad because the incumbents are going to get reelected whether you like it or not.
Nick Tomboulides: Clearly something is happening in Washington though. Our elected officials are listening to somebody, even if it’s not us. So who really has the power? The people who fund their campaigns. Only one tenth of 1% of Americans donate $200 or more to a political campaign. But special interests do it all the time. Gilens and Page found that lobbyists, wealthy donors, business interests, and those who can pay lobbyists do wield influence over public officials. In other words, it’s pay to play and if you aren’t paying, you aren’t playing. These lobbyists spend billions influencing Congress and funding campaigns to prop up career politicians and it’s a great investment. Collectively, they rake in trillions in taxpayer support, subsidies and bailouts.
Nick Tomboulides: Big pharma, energy companies, Wall Street, big Ag, defense contractors, and more. They get rich while Americans fall behind and our system falls deeper into corruption. Where are the good guys you’re probably wondering? When will Mr. Smith go to Washington and take on all these fat cats? Well, even Mr. Smith is having difficulties these days. He doesn’t have millions of bucks sitting around to challenge an incumbent. And if he gets to Washington, he’ll have to spend 70% of his time raising money. To put it simply. Mr. Smith is pretty burnt out. Some people believe America is a democracy. Others say a republic or better yet a democratic republic, but everyone agrees the people should have a role. That government has no legitimacy when it ignores the rights and opinions of its citizens. We don’t have to settle for this. There is a solution to change the culture of Washington. Bring back citizen legislators who run for the right reasons and have the guts to say no to the power brokers. When you know your time in office is short, you have the freedom to do what’s right, not just what’s right for yourself.
Philip Blumel: Thanks for joining us for another episode of No Uncertain Terms. We cannot let the Politicians, Not Voters coalition succeed in overturning the citizens’ will in Michigan. If you live in Michigan, please go to the Save Michigan’s term limits action page at termlimits.com/Michigan and send a message to your legislators right now. Tell them to keep their hands off Michigan’s term limits. Also, please forward this link to other Michiganders you know. You can also find the Michigan action page under the current actions tab at termlimits.com. We have to get ahead of this. Thanks for your help. We’ll be back next week.
Speaker 2: The revolution isn’t being televised. Fortunately, you have the No Uncertain Terms Podcast.