Philip Blumel: Is there hope for the lost generation of congressional Democrats? Hi, I’m Philip Blumel, welcome to No Uncertain Terms, the official Podcast of the Term Limit’s Movement for the week of April 25th, 2022.
Speaker 2: Your sanctuary from partisan politics.
Philip Blumel: The Democratic Party has passed over a lost generation of Gen Xers in favor of aging boomers and even silent generation lawmakers for their positions of leadership in the US Congress. Today, the average age of ranking Democrats on House Committees and this is where all the power is in the Congress, is nearly a decade older than their fellow Republicans. The gerontocracy is opposing any attempts to rectify the situation, but younger democrats may find they have an unlikely ally on the other side of the aisle. Let’s discuss these possibilities with Nick Tomboulides, Executive Director of US Term Limits. Hey, Nick.
Nick Tomboulides: Hello.
Philip Blumel: All right, I’m gonna set the table with a little bit of data here.
Nick Tomboulides: Great Star Trek character.
Philip Blumel: Yeah, I’ve seen it, he is cool isn’t he. But I’m gonna start with some data about the leaders of the Democrat run US House. The Speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi is 82 years old. Majority leader, Steny Hoyer is 82 years old. Majority Whip, James Clyburn, 81 years old. And these are the three most important positions in the House. Now on the Republican side, the Republican leader is Kevin McCarthy, he’s 57 and the Republican Whip, Steve Scalise is 56. And I’ll throw one more out there for you, of the chairs of the committees and of course this is where all the power is in the Congress, of the chairs in the committees, the democrats on average are more than a decade older than their Republican counterparts. So there’s a big difference between the two parties and the biggest thing to explain this is the fact that the Republicans have Term Limits on their committee chairs, and once committee chairs are term limited, they tend to go off into the sunset ’cause they are in their eyes being demoted by losing their power, the Democrats don’t. And so they try to hold on to it.
Philip Blumel: Now, I think this is fascinating, the big news that’s going on right now and the reason why we’re talking about this is because there’s noise on the Republican side that if they take over November, which is increasingly likely that they might try to impose these committee Term Limits, Committee Chair Term Limits of six years on the Democrats as well. I think that’s an awesome idea. Nick?
Nick Tomboulides: No, it’s not. It’s a…
[laughter]
Philip Blumel: Oh, come on.
[laughter]
Nick Tomboulides: I mean, you know, does it help a little…
Philip Blumel: Doubly.
Nick Tomboulides: Okay, does it help a little bit? Sure because the committee system is trash. When someone is on a committee for too long, they vacuum up cash from special interests, you get the banking committee and all of a sudden, JP Morgan Chase wants to hire your drunken ne’er-do-well brother-in-law as its lobbyist, right? Everyone knows how the game is played.
[chuckle]
Philip Blumel: Sure.
Nick Tomboulides: So would this shock the system a little bit? Yes, it’s better than letting the same people run the committees forever, but let’s not pretend this is real Term Limits, okay? Real term limits are a constitutional amendment. Real term limits are making people pack their bags and go home for good. Real term limits don’t let you stay in Washington and keep your seat. That’s my soap box for the day.
Philip Blumel: Okay, and you know what, I have to agree with you on that. You’re right, if we really wanna reform the Congress, it’s gonna require term limits from top to bottom. And the advantages that I started to spell out, I’m gonna spell out a couple of more advantages, of the committee chair term limits are meager compared to what we’re trying to do in amending the Constitution to impose term limits on the whole body, but…
Nick Tomboulides: But… Yeah.
Philip Blumel: Yes, go on.
Nick Tomboulides: Go, go ahead. No, I’ll go on my rant later. Go ahead.
[chuckle]
Philip Blumel: Okay.
[laughter]
Nick Tomboulides: I’ll save my rant for a minute.
[laughter]
Philip Blumel: Okay, ’cause I think there is some positive aspects to this and that are worth mentioning. One is the gerontocracy which is becoming a very real problem. These folks that are running the House right now would all have retired if they were no longer been able to maintain these top positions of power. And I think I can say that with some authority, because we’ve seen it on the Republican side. There tends to be resignations. I mean, not just from the necessary resignations from the committee chair positions because of the term limits but from the whole body by Republicans who basically hit the ceiling and then they leave. And so, we’d start to see this on the Democrat side.
Philip Blumel: Now, there are a lot of young Democrats being elected to the Congress that are basically have no chance of getting to those positions of power for decades, and it’s because these non-term limited and undefeatable incumbents hold those positions and continue to hold them till they’re like 80 years old. And so, there’s a pool of young Democrats that are in their prime, that are not sold out yet completely to special interest and whatnot that want to have those positions of power and the system is holding them back. There’s benefit in creating some kinda flexibility at least in these positions of these committee chairs.
Nick Tomboulides: Well, it’s interesting what you pointed out, you said when some of these old codger politicians hit their committee term limit, they leave, they retire, because they’ve concluded that they have outlived their usefulness. Correct me if I’m wrong but that sounds like a pretty sobering thought, because if that’s true, that would mean that only about 20 or 25 people in all of our 435 member House really have the power to get anything done. And if you’re not the Chairman, the majority ranking member or the minority ranking member on a committee, you’re pretty much useless. Why are you even there? Why bother?
Philip Blumel: Well, that is actually fairly true, as you know, there’ve been many good people that run for Congress and believe it or not, yes, some, they’ll run for Congress and they will leave not in…
Nick Tomboulides: They get relegated to the back bench.
Philip Blumel: Yeah, and they’ll leave after just a couple of terms, not because they lose an election, which is pretty much impossible after your first term or so, but because they’d recognized that they’re so far from levers of power and they could be doing something practical for themself and the world outside of Congress, when inside Congress, all they’re doing is fundraising and casting votes. Basically, spinning their wheels.
Nick Tomboulides: Here’s a question. There’s a difference between committee leaders and members of party leadership, right? So, what we’re talking about here is term limits for only the committee chairs. You let off this podcast by saying Pelosi, Hoyer, Clyburn, all very decrepit and terrible, does this affect them at all? I know Pelosi promised she would stop serving as speaker, but I don’t think this affects Steny Hoyer.
Philip Blumel: Well, we don’t know if it does or not. Right now, what we have is a couple of reports from the Republican side to some reporters that they’re planning on doing this. We have no idea what the proposals are gonna be.
Nick Tomboulides: If it’s anything like the term limits the Republicans have had since 1994, the difference is, they’re now applying it to the minority party for the first time. I think that’s the difference at least. It may not apply to the Speaker of the House and the whip. It might only apply to the committee chairs. We gotta look into that.
Philip Blumel: Yeah. It may not indeed, but you recognize, though, that there is a big difference between the leadership on both the Democrat and Republican side. The fact that people have less time to get done what they want means that they filter through the system quicker. I mean, the leadership on the Republican side, with the semi-term limited system, does create a more vigorous and younger leadership that the Democrats would benefit from if they had it on their side as well.
Nick Tomboulides: But that only applies to the house, of course. So Republican leadership and the Senate is not youthful. Mitch McConnell has been there for… I think Mitch McConnell fought in the Civil War. He’s been around for a very long time.
Philip Blumel: Right, right, right, right. And of course, they don’t have term limits on at any level in the Senate. So I think that’s evidence that what I’m saying is true.
Nick Tomboulides: Yeah. So I would agree with you. It helps on the margins. But to understand what’s happening here, you have to understand there are two different worlds. There’s the real world where most of us live, and then there’s Washington DC. And in the real world, the phrase term limits means that a crappy, corrupt senior politician has to pack his bags, go home and get a real job. Only in the world of Washington DC can the phrase term limits mean something else entirely. It can mean something very watered down. And that’s what we’re discussing here. If the Republicans take back power, they will pass “term limits” for these chairs, which means that the same ancient legislators get to stay in office forever if they want, but they just can’t stay on a committee for more than 12 years.
Nick Tomboulides: And last time Republicans did this, if I recall, their “committee term limits” had more holes than Swiss cheese. You could apply for a waiver and you could stay longer than 12 years if Kevin McCarthy approves it. So, for those of you who shop at Walmart, this is not term limits, this is great value term limits. It’s a discount bargain basement [laughter] version of term limits, very watered down, like the canned soup that I buy from Walmart.
Speaker 4: This is a public service announcement.
Philip Blumel: US Rep Byron Donalds is an African-American congressman and businessman representing Southwest Florida’s 19th district since 2021. His district includes Cape Coral, Fort Myers, and Naples. Donalds was an active supporter of term limits as a Florida State Legislator, and as he explains here to Forbes online Breaking News, he has brought his embrace of this popular reform to the US Congress.
Speaker 5: Do you have a specific amount of time that you think you’re gonna remain in Congress or that you would like to be in Congress for?
Byron Donalds: Oh man, at most, you got a decade out of me. At most, you got 10 years, and then I gotta move on. You know, I’m 43. Serving 10 years, I’ll be 52. 52, 53. Man, I wanna go back and make money. I like money. Money’s a cool thing. I wanna go back to the private sector and make money. Or if you go higher then you go higher in the political apparatus. But I am not a congressional lifer. I do not see myself sitting in the halls of Congress for multiple decades. That’s just not me.
Speaker 5: So I’m guessing, then, you might be supportive of term limits for members of Congress?
Byron Donalds: Very supportive. I’m a product of term limits. I come from a state where you’re term-limited in the state legislature. If there weren’t term limits in Florida, I don’t think I would have been afforded the ability to be elected. And if I wasn’t afforded the ability to be elected at the state level, I highly doubt I would be elected here at the federal level. I know that the people who argue against term limits would say that, Well, all you do is empower staff, or you empower lobbyists, or you lose some institutional knowledge, but I think the good far outweighs the bad. I think that what you get when you have term limits is you have members who are focused, much more focused on accomplishing what they can accomplish in the time period they’re here, because there is no tomorrow.
Byron Donalds: In a state legislature, most state legislatures have a specific period of time that they meet, because mostly legislatures are actually term-limited. There’s a specific period of time they meet. So you gotta get it done. In Congress, there are no deadlines. The only deadlines we deal with here are debt ceiling limits, and we have to fund the government. Those are the two big deadlines here. That’s not good enough for the American people.
Nick Tomboulides: I’ve always been skeptical of McCarthyism, whether it’s Joseph or Kevin.
[laughter]
Philip Blumel: Okay.
Nick Tomboulides: I think they wanna say they’re doing something big without really doing something big, without asking anyone to pack up and leave for good. I am willing to be open to this, and I’m hoping that we do see some positive changes coming from it. And I am encouraged, actually, I’ll grant you this, I’m encouraged by this one quote I read from representative Dean Phillips of Minnesota, who says he’s a member of the New Democrat coalition problem solver caucus. He tweeted, “High-functioning organizations become high-functioning by building strong benches and limiting the tenure of leaders, usually less than 10 years. No matter which party controls Congress in 23, we should adopt term limits for committee chairs and get serious about developing a new generation of leaders.” Now…
Philip Blumel: Hear, hear.
Nick Tomboulides: Yes. Call me naive, but I’m hoping that leads to serious discussion on real term limits.
Philip Blumel: Nick, one more last thing about this committee chair term limits. There was a study done, this is about five years ago, by some folks, let’s see, there are Craig Volden, Professor of Public Policy and Politics at the Frank Batten School of Leadership and Public Policy at the University of Virginia. Alan Wiseman from Vanderbilt. Anyway, these guys put together a report on how committee chair term limits and the Republican side in the house made a difference. And what they found is that the amount of power that these politicians have when they’re in the house jumps when they become a committee chair, of course, from being a rank and file member, and the reason why they measured this is they had like 15 metrics that show the power and influence of a member of Congress.
Philip Blumel: And they said that the committee chairs in their first three terms are about four and a half times as powerful as the average lawmaker, which is pretty striking, but then those in their fourth through six terms, and this is from the period before term limits, averaged about six times as powerful as a typical law maker. I mean, it’s another step up in power once they hit that mark after being in there for basically that 10 years, and they didn’t use the word power, they used the word effectiveness by the way, ’cause they judged solely by passage of legislation.
Philip Blumel: I think that we don’t see eye to eye on that, but the point is though, you can see that the power of these guys jumps when they get to committee chair, of course. That’s why we need to limit them, and then after they’ve been in the committee chair for a long time, their power is so incredible in the House that it jumps again. And I think just as another bit of evidence that these committee chairs, term limits as inadequate they are compared to real term limits are nonetheless an important reform based on the same principles is what we’re trying to achieve for the entire body. So, I’m gonna give it two cheers and a half, maybe two and a half.
Nick Tomboulides: Okay, I’ll give it half a cheer, but…
Philip Blumel: Okay. Well, that adds up to three.
Nick Tomboulides: Did you know that committee chairmanships in Congress are awarded on the basis of knowledge and education and subject matter expertise and [laughter] merit? Did you know that?
Philip Blumel: Wait a minute, is that new? Is that new?
Nick Tomboulides: No, that’s not true at all. They’re awarded based on [laughter] who’s willing to bribe the political party behind the scenes.
[chuckle]
Philip Blumel: Yeah.
Nick Tomboulides: In fact, the leaders of both parties actually put a list, they tack a list to a bulletin board in the back rooms of Congress that has the name of the committee chairmanship, as well as the price, the size of the bribe that you have to confer on the leadership in order to get that chairmanship. And of course, you have to raise that money from all of the special interests who have business in front of the committee, so.
Philip Blumel: That’s true. Nick is not exaggerating here. This is literally the truth. There’s two major factors that go into getting a chairmanship like this, and one is tenure, and the next is your demonstrated fundraising ability, and that is demonstrated fundraising ability in terms of actual numbers that the party keeps track of. It’s astounding how dysfunctional our Congress is and how warped that system is.
Nick Tomboulides: And if you ever wanna see someone not get to spend 12 years on that committee as the chairman, watch what happens when they stop fundraising, ’cause Kevin McCarthy kicks them off that committee immediately as soon as the money dries up.
Philip Blumel: Right.
Nick Tomboulides: You’re saying it limited their effectiveness. You know, I had a reporter call me one time about term limits, and there was a new study that had just come out and he said, “There’s a study and it says when legislators have term limits, they pass fewer laws [laughter] and they are much less effective as legislators, as politicians. What do have to say to that?” I just said, “You’re welcome.”
Philip Blumel: Yeah, right. No kidding. [laughter] Indeed.
Philip Blumel: Thanks for joining us for another episode of No Uncertain Terms. The term limits convention bills are moving through the state legislatures. This could be a breakthrough year for the term limits movement. To check on the status of the term limits convention resolution in your state, go to termlimits.com/takeaction. There you will see if it has been introduced and where it stands in the committee process on its way to the floor vote. If there’s action to take, you’ll see a Take Action button by your state. Click it. This will give you the opportunity to send a message to the most relevant legislators, urging them to support the legislation. They have to know you are watching. That’s termlimits.com/takeaction. If your state has already passed the term limits convention resolution or the bill has not been introduced in your state, you can still help. Please consider making a contribution to US Term Limits. It is our aim to hit the reset button on the US Congress, and you can help. Go to termlimits.com/donate, termlimits.com/donate. Thanks. We’ll be back next week.
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Speaker 7: USTL.